Online presentation with Patricia Coughlin

Patricia Coughlin presentation
Patricia Coughlin

Mastering the trial therapy in ISTDP – AN online presentation with Patricia Coughlin

At the end of November this year, Patricia Coughlin will give an online presentation on the topic of the ISTDP “trial therapy”. ISTDP often begins with a longer therapy session, usually 2-3 hours, where we assess the patient and the suitability of the treatment model to the patient – the trial therapy. Research has shown that this first session in itself can have long-lasting benefits on mood symptoms and interpersonal problems.

In this video based webinar you will learn how to work effectively with a highly resistant patient with both a character disorder and anxiety and depression. You will observe the process of a trial therapy, in which a specific set of interventions is employed as a vehicle for determining the nature of the unconscious conflicts responsible for the patients symptoms and suffering. We will also discuss suitability for treatment with Intensive Short-Term Dynamic Psychotherapy (ISTDP).  The webinar is organized by a group of ISTDP therapists in Oslo, Norway: Psykologvirke

Date: November 23rd

Time: CET 12.00 – 20.00

Price: 1800 NOK

Registration and more information: click here


PATRICIA COUGHLIN

Patricia Coughlin Della Selva, Ph.D., is a licensed Clinical Psychologist with over 35 years of clinical experience. Currently she is Clinical Faculty at the University of New Mexico School of Medicine. Over the past 20 years she has written professionally, given presentations at professional conferences and conducted workshops for mental health professionals internationally. Currently, she is conducting training groups in New York, Australia, Denmark, and Poland. Patricia last presented in Sweden in the fall of 2016.

Patricia has authored three books which are all considered essential readings for anyone interested in ISTDP: Intensive Short-term Dynamic Psychotherapy: Theory and Technique (1996), Lives Transformed (2006; in collaboration with Dr. David Malan) and Maximizing Therapeutic Effectiveness in Dynamic Psychotherapy (2016).


A while back we did an interview with Patricia Coughlin, which you can find here.

Here are some of our other recent interviews:

You can find other articles and materials in english by following this link.

Patricia Coughlin: “ISTDP is a psychoanalytic method”

Here’s an interview with Patricia Coughlin. In September this year, the Swedish society for ISTDP will have the great pleasure to welcome Patricia to Malmö – if all goes according to plan. We sat down with her to talk about learning ISTDP, about sexual conflict, about psychoanalysis and more.

Patricia Coughlin Malmö
Patricia Coughlin

How do you feel about coming back to Sweden to present? 
I am delighted to return to Sweden and welcome the opportunity!

How did you end up becoming a therapist and later on specializing in ISTDP?
I knew from an early age that I was meant to be a psychologist. I pursued this goal with great focus and determination, obtaining my PhD at the age of 25. I was always interested in depth – in understanding the patient (and myself) in a profound way. I was most interested in what was happening beneath the surface, in the unconscious. All of my early education and training was in psychoanalytic/psychodynamic theory and practice. Like Davanloo, I became frustrated and guilty about erratic results with interpretive methods. Many patients came to understand their difficulties, but only some transferred that learning into change. Meeting Davanloo in 1988 and watching tapes of the Machine Gun Woman, the German Architect, and others, was a life altering experience. I saw the unconscious crack open in the most unmistakable way, when the therapist actively intervened to identify and intensify the patient’s core conflicts. I needed to learn that! 

How did you experience training with Davanloo? 
I had good experiences with Dr. Davanloo. He was always respectful and very helpful. I learned more from him than anyone about how to intervene rapidly and effectively. I was in a core group in Montreal for three years. Most of the time, I was the only woman in the group. Many in the group had been training with Davanloo for decades, yet very few seemed to be able to master the technique. Why was that?

In my own estimation, supervision, without teaching, gets limited results. There was little reference to the theory upon which ISTDP was built. He just assumed we already knew analytic theory. Luckily, I did, so I could employ the techniques in order to gain rapid access to the unconscious. Then, all my former knowledge, skill and training, aided me in helping the patient resolve the unconscious conflicts responsible for his symptoms and suffering.

Davanloo was very impersonal in his interaction with trainees. The lack of focus on the person of the therapist was the other factor that I thought contributed to problems in learning and growing. I have tried to include a good deal of teaching, as well as a focus on dynamic case formulation and personal development of each trainee in my groups, in order to enhance the learning experience. My trainees learn the method and the theory it is based upon, and develop as people, as well as clinicians.

My experiences with Davanloo were good while I was training with him, but he cut me off, as he has everyone who goes off on their own. I haven’t heard from him since I left training, but have heard that he denies knowing me. He has done this with everyone he has ever trained, so I don’t take it personally. At the same time, this way of treating people gives ISTDP a bad name and has undermined the method expanding more widely and rapidly.

What’s your perspective on the relationship between psychoanalysis and ISTDP? 
ISTDP is a psychoanalytic method. In many ways, this technique is similar to Freud’s early work, in which he was quite active and confrontational. Over time he got more passive and pessimistic, not in the least part due to being a Jew who was driven out of his country. For many reasons, he became increasingly pessimistic about human nature all together.

Davanloo felt Freud took a wrong turn when he decided to “bow to the superego’s resistance, which sees our efforts come to nothing”. Instead, he took up resistance as soon as it was apparent, inviting the patient to face and experience the feelings he has been avoiding, in order to heal. He also put pressure on the patient to decide whether to continue hiding and avoiding painful realities and feelings or to face them courageously in order to heal. By identifying and intensifying inner conflict and ambivalence, he was able to unlock the unconscious. 

His methods are all used pre-interpretively. It’s for those patients who are locked in by defenses and unavailable for a therapeutic alliance. Once the defenses break down, and the feelings break through into consciousness, dynamic therapy ensues. Many confuse the part with the whole, and the means for the end, but his method is used to open the unconscious. Once the unconscious is open and fluid, working through previously unconscious conflicts, to a new and healthy end is the order of the day. I think this whole mid phase of therapy has been neglected in ISTDP. My colleague Jonathan Entis and I are writing a book about this presently.

Sexuality used to be a central theme in psychotherapy education and writing. This seems to have changed and psychotherapy training nowadays hardly deals with the topic at all. Or that’s at least my impression. Maybe that’s different if you’re trying to become an analyst. Are we past the time when sexuality was a central aspect of psychotherapy? 
In my experience, many patients struggle with conflicts regarding sexual feelings and impulses, as well as those regarding rivalry and competition. The idea that we only have one kind of conflict – guilt over rage toward loved ones – is dangerously narrow. When we develop a set idea about the origin of the patient’s difficulties before meeting and assessing him, we will be prone to confirmation bias. It is essential to keep an open and curious mind and to evaluate the nature, intensity and history of the patient’s problems, in order to ascertain the nature of conflicts responsible for them The neglect of these other conflicts and our narrow focus contributes to poor outcomes. I have seen many patients who suffer from jealousy and rivalry conflicts get no help from other clinicians. It is important that we take all the data into consideration.

So does ISTDP offer unique insights about sexuality and sexual conflict?
The insight about the origins of conflicts regarding sexuality, rivalry and competition are not unique to ISTDP, but confirm psychoanalytic notions of the Oedipal conflict and sibling rivalry. The rage toward the competitor, along with forbidden sexual desires for family members, generates anxiety and defenses that undermine sexual pleasure and performance and can also contribute to a pattern of staying in the position of the loser. Inhibitions about “winning” and “beating” rivals are common and can be traced to Oedipal and sibling rivalry. Understanding these conflicts and the analytic ideas associated with them are important in helping clinicians identify and resolve them, both within themselves, and in their patients.

What are some of the aspects of ISTDP that still are in need of development? 
ISTDP, like many therapeutic models developed over the last 50 years, focuses almost exclusively on conflicts around attachment. The need to attach in a secure fashion to others is only one of two primary drives in operation from birth to death. The other is the innate tendency to be a separate, unique individual. The need for autonomy, self definition, and self determination is just as important as the need for attachment. If we focus exclusively on attachment, we can support the patient’s problem, which is often an excessive reliance on support and validation from others. 

Attending to the patient’s sense of self, so that he can feel solid and secure within himself, is capable of self regulation, self definition, self mastery, and intimacy with self, as well as other, is often neglected. Getting these two drives in balance, such that the more solid one’s self of self and the better able to stand on one’s own two feet, the better able we are to attach in a secure manner. 

The more secure our attachments, the freer we are to separate. Attending to what Blatt called “The Polarities of Experience” are needed to facilitate health and optimal functioning. In contrast, relying excessively on other validation, while being unable to self validate, sets patients up for enhanced anxiety and sub optimal functioning. If we only focus on reactive feelings toward others, and neglect how the patient feels about himself (proud and capable, for example), we keep them at effect, rather than cause. When we take over the process and dictate what the patient should do (face feelings) and must stop doing (rationalizing, avoiding, etc) we reinforce passivity and a tendency to sacrifice self for other. Supporting and encouraging differentiation, as well as attachment, is often required.

In what ways have your way of doing therapy changed over the past five or ten years, and why?
My work is smoother and more integrated. And I am more myself in the process.

What are you struggling to learn as a teacher and therapist right now? 
I am always learning, and hopefully, improving in my ability to teach, supervise and support the development of the person of the therapists. The fact that so many of my current and former trainees have gone on to become real contributors in the field – writing, teaching and presenting at conferences – is a great source of satisfaction and optimism for the future.

Where do you see ISTDP going in the coming five or ten years? 
I have no idea where ISTDP will go from here and look forward to seeing how it all evolves. My greatest concern is that the method is being taught in a highly technical fashion, with little, if any reference to theory or case conceptualization. There are no short cuts and this complex method can’t be learned and practicing by rote. Of course we are all eager to pass on our knowledge, but training and expertise take time. It is a life long journey. It’s important to remember that the best therapists have superior meta-cognitive skills. They have superior working memory, are able to spot patterns as they happen, and tolerate complexity and uncertainty. Containing these polarities – being systematic but flexible, courageous and enthusiastic but humble and open to feedback – is a challenge for us all.

Would you like to say something directly to the Swedish audience ahead of the event? 
I want to wish my Swedish colleagues all the best. These are scary times. Remember to focus on what you can do rather than worrying about things we can’t control. Just three 10 minute periods of meditations on gratitude each day will significantly boost your immune system. I have just returned home from Norway and am incredibly grateful to have arrived safely and in a healthy state. I am extremely grateful that we have the internet and secure sites so we can see our patient’s remotely. I am also grateful for some down time to rest and reflect. We all tend to work a great deal. Slowing down is a good thing. I hope the virus will die down and our plans to get together in late summer will materialize.

Patricia is coming to present in Malmö, Sweden, on the 10th of September, 2020. Make sure to make a reservation now, as seating is limited. Depending on the CoVid-19 situation, the date might be subject to change.


If you liked this Patricia Coughlin interview, you might find our other interviews interesting. For example, we have done interviews with several of Patricia’s former students, such as Kristy Lamb and Jon Frederickson. Here’s a list of our recent interviews:

[POSTPONED] Patricia Coughlin on sexuality in Malmö

On September 10, the Swedish association for ISTDP welcomes you to a one-day conference with Patricia Coughlin in Malmö, southern Sweden. EDIT: Due to CoVid-19, this event has been postponed until 2021.

Understanding and resolving sexual conflicts with Intensive Short-Term Dynamic Psychotherapy (ISTDP)

We’re very happy to welcome Patricia Coughlin back to Malmö for this one-day conference. The focus of the talk will be on understanding conflicts around sexuality. Patricia Coughlin, a renowned expert in ISTDP, will discuss how to detect the presence of these conflicts in your patients, and present methods designed to resolve them. Authentic videotaped examples of work with patients who struggle with conflicts around sex, jealousy and rivalry will be shown.

Patricia Coughlin portrait

Patricia Coughlin

Patricia Coughlin Della Selva, Ph.D., is a licensed Clinical Psychologist with over 35 years of clinical experience. Currently she is Clinical Faculty at the University of New Mexico School of Medicine. Over the past 20 years she has written professionally, given presentations at professional conferences and conducted workshops for mental health professionals internationally. Currently, she is conducting training groups in New York, Australia, Denmark, and Poland. Patricia last presented in Sweden in the fall of 2016.

Patricia has authored three books which are all considered essential readings for anyone interested in ISTDP: Intensive Short-term Dynamic Psychotherapy: Theory and Technique (1996), Lives Transformed (2006; in collaboration with Dr. David Malan) and Maximizing Therapeutic Effectiveness in Dynamic Psychotherapy (2016).

Registration and info

Location: Nobel house, Act room, Per Weiiersgatan 6, 211 34 Malmö, Sweden

Date: Thursday, September 10th, 2020 At some point during 2021

Time: Registration starts at 8.30, workshop 09.00–17.00 (lunch approx. 12.00-13.00), book signing 17.00-18.30

Price: 2000 SEK for non-members, 1500 SEK for members of the Swedish society for ISTDP, 750 SEK for full-time students (regardless of membership). Lunch and coffee is included in the price. 15% discount for “early bird” registrations before April 15th! Register now – seating is limited!

Registration: E-mail your full name, work title, any food allergies or preferences and full invoice information to Victoria Paglert (vpaglert@gmail.com) for registration.

Contact: Victoria Paglert (vpaglert@gmail.com), Peter Lilliengren (peter.lilliengren@affekta.se)

This information is also available in this flyer.

Welcome! We’re looking forward to seeing you in Malmö next year.


For information about our other events (in Swedish and English), make sure to check out our events page.

Jon Frederickson: “Training with Davanloo was startling”

We did an interview with Jon Frederickson ahead of his first ISTDP workshop on Finnish soil at the end of March. In the interview he discusses the relationship between psychoanalysis and ISTDP, as well as his own discovery of ISTDP and other themes.

Jon Frederickson portrait
Jon Frederickson

How do you feel about going to Finland to present for the first time? 
I’m very excited of course to teach a new group of therapists. But, honestly, what has me really excited is to be in the homeland of Sibelius. Such a giant in classical music! If only I had a little more time, I would visit his home in the woods and absorb the mood of the forest of which his music spoke.

For people who don’t know you, how did you end up becoming a therapist and later on specializing in ISTDP? 
I was initially inspired to become a therapist through the writings of Erich Fromm. Such an inspirational writer, a psychoanalyst, a sociologist, an atheistic mystic. How could I not be fascinated by such a brilliant and heartful role model! I became psychoanalytically trained and some years later had a chance to see videotape of ISTDP. It was like seeing psychoanalysis live and active in a way I had never dared to imagine.

In the nineties you had quite a lot of training with Patricia Coughlin, and later on you met Davanloo and trained with him. How did you find training with Patricia and Davanloo? 
Supervision with Patricia revolutionized my work as a therapist, making my therapy far more focused and effective. With Davanloo, it was a bit startling. I was chair of a psychoanalytic psychotherapy training program and yet with Davanloo I was for the first time understanding many concepts on far deeper levels than I ever had before. Sadly, he dismissed psychoanalysis at that point in his career. Yet his training only deepened my appreciation and understanding of its depths.

Speaking of psychoanalysis, what’s your perspective on the relationship between psychoanalysis and ISTDP? 
Freud said that any therapy is psychoanalysis if it operates with a concept of the unconscious and the transference. ISTDP meets those criteria. ISTDP is obviously more active an approach than a classical analysis done on the couch. However, its work is entirely based on the exploration of unconscious feelings, addressing unconscious anxiety, and the careful work with unconscious defenses and resistance in the transference relationship. And in line with Bion’s statement about psychoanalysis, our work is based on faith that the patient will become healed by becoming at one with the emotional truth of this moment. 

In Helsinki you’re doing a workshop on trauma. Does ISTDP offer a unique take on trauma, or is this a standard psychoanalytic perspective?
I don’t know how to answer that because psychoanalysis is such a pluralistic community now that it would be reductionistic to claim that there is “one” way psychoanalysts work with trauma. Unlike some other communities, ISTDP therapists and analysts understand that the effects of trauma depend on multiple factors such as the child’s age when the trauma occurred, nature of the trauma, genetics, temperament, and the parental response to trauma.

We also recognize that dealing with the trauma involves not just the mind but the body. And we also recognize that issues of symbolization and mentalization must be carefully attended to. And we also note whether it was a one-time trauma or a case of cumulative trauma. All these factors lead to a complexity in treatment which any psychoanalytically informed clinician must take into account.

ISTDP is in many ways still a “new form of therapy”, given that so few people have been trained in it. What are some of the aspects of ISTDP that still are in need of development? 
ISTDP, while quite effective in research studies, has yet to develop research specifically into the treatment of narcissistic personality disorder and perversions. Our recent research with drug addicts is showing a surprising amount of effectiveness with patients suffering from psychotic symptoms. So I think we need to do more research into what differentiates the near-psychotic group of patients who respond to work on splitting and projection, and the psychotic level of character structure that does not respond. Given the successes we are having, I am hoping we can build on Marcus’ work on near-psychosis in our future work.

A common reaction to reading about ISTDP or watching a presentation is that the method is confrontational and even violent. Should ISTDP be less confrontational?
ISTDP isn’t violent, defenses are. That’s we try to block and identify defenses which do violence to the patient. Let us not forget that defenses cause the patient’s problems and presenting problems. They are a form of internalized violence. And the most compassionate thing we can do is block unconscious forms of violence that hurt the patient, and to help them see these previously invisible mechanisms so that he they have a chance to do something different.

Likewise, we don’t interrupt the patient. We interrupt the defenses that interrupt the patient. We never interrupt the heart speaking from its depths, we interrupt the defenses that keep the patient from speaking from her heart. Also, the idea of confrontation makes no sense about 99% of the time. After all, if the poor patient can’t see a defense, is not using it intentionally, and is unaware of it, he just needs some compassionate help to see his defenses. Otherwise, how could he do anything different in the moment?

Think of self-attack. It’s a form of violent communication to oneself. A child who grew up with a critic becomes a critic to himself. The nicest thing we can do is interrupt this form of self-cruelty and help the patient look under that defense to see what the feelings are being warded off.

Coming back to you, in what ways have your way of doing therapy changed over the past five or ten years, and why?
Hahaha! Throughout my career, as I look back, I can see that I have increasingly surrendered my resistance to being here, now, with the patient I have. I am increasingly able to accept the patient unconditionally, without needing him to change in any way. This may sound easy or trivial to readers who believe you already do this. And, if you do, good for you! But I find that this is a universal journey we take as therapists as we give up even the tiniest resistances to reality: meaning the patient as he is. My work has become very attuned to the tiniest cues of the unconscious will-to-health. And that shift may be the most important technical shift in my work recently.

What are you struggling to learn as a teacher and therapist right now? 
I’m in the midst of several projects with the aim of developing new forms of training and supervision. The research shows that graduate training does not improve therapist effectiveness. And after graduation, research shows that therapists do not improve. Research also shows that 93% of psychotherapy supervision is ineffective and 35% actually harmful. So in this part of my career I am most interested in researching what helps therapists become more effective. That is why I am focusing on skill building exercises and DVDs. I have a skill building book coming out next year. And I’ve begun a three-year study where we will study learning processes in a training group. That research will be the basis of a book I will write on the teaching and learning of experiential therapy.

You have two new books in the making. Can you tell us something about them?
My next book, Co-Creating Safety: treating the fragile patient, is designed for therapists who want to learn how to treat the most disturbed patients in their caseloads, ranging from patients who just had a psychotic break to patients in the borderline spectrum of character structure. After that, my next book will be, Healing Through Relating, a skill building book with skill building exercises training therapists in the fifty most important skills in developing a therapeutic alliance. I was trained as a professional musician. So I’m trying to develop some “étude” books now for therapists.

Would you like to say something directly to the Finnish audience about the event? 
I look forward very much to showing you a three-hour session which will allow us to learn concepts, see them put into action, and see how a patient begins to recognize the unconscious enactments that have driven her suffering. There is something about seeing a real therapy that is helping the patient moment by moment that is unlike any other kind of learning experience. I look forward to seeing you there!


If you liked this Jon Frederickson interview, you might be interested in our other interviews. Among them, there’s another Jon Frederickson interview from last year. There’s also a recent interview with Kristy Lamb on ISTDP for addictions that might be of interest. Here are the five most recent interviews:

You can find all of our content in english by following this link.

Kristy Lamb: “I want ISTDP to become the standard of care for addiction treatment”

This is an interview with Kristy Lamb, who’s a psychiatrist and ISTDP clinician in California. For the past few years, she’s been running an outpatient clinic – BOLD Health – which treats addictions using an intensive format of ISTDP.

Kristy Lamb portrait
Kristy Lamb

It’s been two years now with the BOLD clinic if I’m not mistaken. How does it feel? What have you learned? 
We started BOLD Health in March of 2017, so we are coming up on our 3 year anniversary already. It’s all really exciting – so much has happened over the past 3 years.

Trained as a physician in Family Medicine and Psychiatry I had no background at all in business before this. So it has been a wild ride of learning as I go, trying to balance all the different aspects of the project. Learning about running a business and being an entrepreneur with regular supervision and deliberate practice for the clinical development of my staff and myself. 

For better or worse, much of the learning about the business has been trial and error.  So much of what I didn’t know, I didn’t realize until some issue or crisis and it was in working through the crisis that I learned.  I think it is much this way in therapy that you know what to do and how to do it until you come across something new, and then, the working through, the attunement and attention to the response to intervention, helps build your working model.  

What’s the background of the clinic? How are things developing? 
When I first graduated from residency (after five years of training in family medicine and psychiatry after medical school), I was working in a number of different environments practicing both general medicine and psychiatry from a concierge clinic to a homeless shelter and even in the jails. I had a passion for serving underserved and marginalized populations, but wanted to expose myself to all different clinical environments to see how things worked. It was clear that the system in the US creates a great chasm between the haves and the have nots

In the county clinics I had 15 minutes to see a patient and taking extra time to do any type of therapy was frowned upon because the system was so impacted. However, in the concierge, pay-for-service model I could spend as much time as I needed with people and as you’d expect those patients got better. So I set out to start a private practice in order to have the time and space to hone my skills in ISTDP but eventually to build space to do research so we can show the long-term cost-effectiveness of ISTDP and bring the model back to the community setting. And that’s where things are now. 

Why is ISTDP a suitable treatment for addictions? Aren’t there other psychological models with more scientific backing? 
This is such an important question. With the number of people dying from substance use each year growing exponentially, it’s imperative that we are figuring out what treatments work and what treatments don’t work.  Unfortunately, in the US over 90% of treatment programs are based in the 12-step model which has only about an 8% success rate. It has no scientific backing and was started as community support, not treatment. We are certainly not against the 12-step program and encourage our patients to engage in the community of 12-step. But we also recognize that substance dependence requires psychological treatment and often medications in the early stages if patients are to have sustained sobriety and more so, sustained success in their lives. 

In regard to why ISTDP is such a great model for addiction treatment, it really comes down to the way we conceptualize addiction – as Jon Frederickson says, “We are all addicted to avoiding reality.” We all use different mechanisms to numb and avoid the reality of our lives and drugs and alcohol are just one way we do this – so some people go to TV, or work, or exercise, or compulsions. 

Any of our defenses can be seen as a mechanism to avoid what we are feeling. Drugs and alcohol are no different and once someone is no longer under the influence by just abstaining from the substance, they can start to look at what was driving the numbing that, in this case, can be lethal.  When the substances are seen as just another defense it is clear that ISTDP is a perfect model to treat the human disease of affect intolerance. 

I think another reason why ISTDP is so important in addiction are the interventions that provides the therapist with a clear and direct way to address the common defenses in this group. Handling projection of will, projection of omnipotence, denial, helplessness and hopelessness, and anxiety regulation. All of which are imperative if treatment is to be successful.

What’s the treatment format, length of treatment, rules etc? And how did it come about
Our treatment program averages 10 weeks depending on the patient’s level of acuity.  When a patient signs up for the program they undergo neuro-psychological testing, a commitment interview assessing their will for engagement in treatment and then start the program with groups 3-5 days per week, once per week individual therapy and once per week as needed medication management appointments. 

Each day consists of 30 minutes of biofeedback, an hour of group psychoeducation and then an hour and a half of what we call The BOLD Seat which is structured group therapy. All the group members are given an opportunity to take the BOLD Seat in front of the group to look at a specific problem for the day with the therapist leading the group. The other patients observe and participate, helping that patient see anxiety and defenses. Also, watching your peer gives you the opportunity to see yourself objectively as you may resonate with what the person in the BOLD Seat is saying but be able to see it from a different, more compassionate, distance.  

Our curriculum and the entire structure were developed in collaboration with Jon Frederickson who had piloted this model at a program in Arizona, the data from which was recently published in the Journal of Addictive Diseases.

I had the good fortune of meeting Jon at a week-long training in Whidbey Island, WA, in 2016 and I was just starting to look at group therapy for addiction. We then started working on expanding the previous work that had started in Arizona and now, four years later, here we are. Jon has been an integral part of our development not only for the structure of the program but he provides weekly supervision to our team and has helped establish the ethos of the clinic – compassion, respect and integrity.

What are some of the challenges when doing ISTDP with persons who struggle with addictions? 
Really there is no difference in treating someone with addiction problems than any other patient if the patient is currently sober. Jon Frederickson often talks about the notion that there are specific criteria necessary to actually have a patient in the room.  You can’t do therapy with someone who is actively intoxicated so monitoring for this is critical. 

That being said, as we are an addiction treatment center we have to be sensitive to still welcoming people who are ambivalent about their treatment or struggling to maintain sobriety. We have to greet them with compassion and honesty: they may need a residential program or an inpatient detox or a residential program to begin with. So they can really get some time away from the drugs or alcohol, so that they later can get the most out of our program. 

Accordingly, when we screen for use during the program we work to approach the patient with compassion and understanding to let them know that relapse is common. And we don’t have a right or a need to punish them, but rather use the testing as just information to let us know if their will for engagement in treatment is aligned with their actions. Knowing that that sometimes it’s not, and we just have to pull back and get clear about where they are and what they want for themselves. We work really hard not to own the will of sobriety in any of our patients.

Many patients in recovery haven’t connected to their internal motivation for treatment. They are in program because of their partner, or parents, or job, or the law are setting an ultimatum. We have to work really hard to get clear that unless the patient wants to engage, treatment won’t work. 

What’s it like to do a core training with your fellow colleagues and staff? 
It feels like such a gift to be doing core training with our staff.  When we started, part of the collaboration with Jon Frederickson was to start a new core training cohort with our staff and weekly supervision with him and Esther Rosen

My first core training with Patricia Coughlin was personally life changing and the people I met there have become lifelong friends. But it has been a totally different experience to have all of my work colleagues now be a part of the quarterly intensive training. And for us to be able to come back to BOLD and stay motivated between core trainings with weekly skill building and supervision. So many things in place to keep focus.

It really feels like a dream to be working in a clinic based in ISTDP. Even during our lunch breaks we are chatting about defenses, portrayals and psychodynamic understandings of our patients. It creates an environment of support and collaboration like nothing I have ever experienced in any other work environment. I am incredibly grateful to Jon and our whole team for building this space.

In the swedish context there’s quite a lot of talk about deliberate practice nowadays. What are you struggling to learn right now as a therapist? 
I am a big fan of deliberate practice and have seen how deeply it changed my work. In 2016, I took a short course in deliberate practice and then had ongoing supervision with Tony Rousmaniere. I couldn’t agree more with Tony’s notion that the therapist’s own work is the glass ceiling between good providers and great providers. It is only when you can notice and work through your own “stuff” that comes up in sessions that you can really be present with the patient in front of you.

So the deliberate practice related to skill building is wonderful and undoubtedly makes for improved outcomes, but it is the personal work that Tony taught me that I find the most difficult and the most important. What I need to pay attention to so I can know when my anxiety comes up, where I might unconsciously avoid going with my patients, or biases I might have from my own life experiences. It is through this internally focused deliberate practice that I have been able to become more present and more available to my patients, which results in markedly more effective work. This work takes a lot of effort: making time and space for watching my own videos and – as importantly – making time for my own self-care and therapy. 

If you dream a bit, where would you like ISTDP and addiction psychiatry to go within the next 5 or 10 years? 
Thank you for asking! I happen to be someone who sets goals that I think others often think are idealistic or impossible but at BOLD we encourage our staff to dream wildly about what can be. 

I deeply believe in this model and want to see it become the standard of care for addiction treatment. We are looking to start a revolution and would love to see the BOLD Method be known across the world as the most effective treatment of addiction. Dream big! Right?

I would also love to see our clinic running as an incubator where we can continue to hone the model and build a body of research that supports what we are doing, as well as become a training facility so that we can support others to engage in this model of treatment. 


If you liked this Kristy Lamb interview, maybe you’ll appreciate some of our other interviews. Below, you’ll find a list of our five most recent ones.

Also, a while back we reported on the Frederickson et al. 2019 addiction trial. You can find that article here (in swedish). For all of our content in english, please click here.